IF_&_THEN_
If I John 4:8 is true and I Corinthians 13:8 is true, then why do inerrantists believe God will eternally torment any of his creation?
posted by Don @ 3:30 PM
11 comments
In Search of Life
Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world. - Richard Le Gallienne
Friday, December 08, 2006
If I John 4:8 is true and I Corinthians 13:8 is true, then why do inerrantists believe God will eternally torment any of his creation?
About Me
- Name: Don
- Location: Texas, United States
Around 2001, I began a journey of questioning everything I ever learned. I haven't stopped questioning and won't stop questioning as long as I have the ability to think. Please come along with me, a simple man on a complicated journey.
11 Comments:
because they have "vested" interest! The hardest thing for me in my journey was when I realized that my "doing" for God for over 25 years meant NOTHING! It will cause you to be mad and upset for along time. But then TRUE PEACE comes! And oh how I wish all people knew the Peace I know have! It is a hard thing to finally come to the end of your beliefs. But it is also the most liberating thing of all.
Peace
Geo
Eternal torment of any creature is unthinkable for me. In my opinion, it's a major flaw in our theology to believe that a loving and merciful God could enjoy or feel justified in tormenting people forever and ever for the sins of one short lifetime.
I believe there will be destruction of this old world and those who refuse to accept and embrace the love of God, but it will be instantaeneous- not forever.
Has annihilation always been a part of your belief system or is it something you came to believe at a later time? I am interested in your ideas on the subject.
Annhilation has been taught to me since I was young. Though I do not believe in a burning hell that lasts forever and ever, I have no other picture theologically that makes sense to me yet other than punishment for those God deems to be wicked.
Evil must be destroyed or how could we know paradise? God does not force anyone to accept Him. But eventually, those who do not turn from darkness, well what then, does evil continue forever, or does God destroy it? According to the Bible, all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. Christ died so we would not have to pay that debt and yet our physical bodies die. Did Christ die to redeem us from the death we all face here on earth, or from a second death that lasts for eternity?
God is merciful, but also just. Sodom was destroyed because of it's wickedness, as was the world with a flood. So I know God is capable of wiping all living things away if necessary.
There have been times when I viewed Hell as separation from God. This along with many of my views are under intense examination.
Everlasting Hell was the singlemost reason that at one point in my life I turned away from Christianity altogether. I could not give my heart to such a tyrant who would otherwise roast me endlessly for making mistakes during one short lifetime.
Interesting discussion! :o) Do you believe in annhilation or a different theory? I'm interested in your thoughts.
Thank you so much for your honesty and your comments. I’m always interested in others thoughts and opinions.
I grew up hearing hell-fire and brimstone sermons which scared me to death. However, in the last two years as I searched for truth, I have come to believe in the restitution of ALL things. It is very Biblical. Reconciliation of all things to Himself is taught throughout the New Testament. I would refer you the following sites where you can search for articles about those subjects. Most include “search” engine capability and will allow you to find what you want:
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://www.gospelfortoday.org/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html
The reason I am giving you these websites is that they can say things much better than I can. I will tell you a few things that I have discovered. I, like you, once believed in the “free will” on man. I was totally convinced of the veracity of this doctrine….until I read a small, short book by Martin Zender. It is not my intention to change your views. The Holy Spirit must reveal truth to you, not me. I have a copy of Martin’s book which I would be glad to send you. It changed my life. My last post, the Dec. 8 post, gives two verses that sum up why I believe God will not eternally punish anyone or will not annihilate anyone. It has to do with God’s love. I am not saying there is not consequences for our bad choices. I just believe they are earthly only. No one denies they can be very severe on many occasions. But, I believe that God sent His son to redeem the world, the entire world. (I TIM 4:9-11a) Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers.
I hope I haven’t too long-winded. I appreciate your post tremendously. You remind me that we all have good things to say that can be inspirational. At the same time, you, like the rest of us, suffer through this life too. Bless you and know you are an inspiration to me.
"God is merciful, but also just. Sodom was destroyed because of it's wickedness, as was the world with a flood. So I know God is capable of wiping all living things away if necessary."
Thank you, just wanted to express a few thoughts about Sodom story, that they will be restored in Ezekiel 16. Calvin said it was irony, Luther believed the text, but was baffled by it. The Chrisitan tradition, since Augustine, has had a dualistic understanding of God, He's just and He's merciful, as if He ahs two opposing attributes of Himself; more and more Chrisitan scholars and thinkers are argung that God is Love, and, yes, He does bring judgment in time and history, but it is all leading to Resoration, reconcilliation. But, my only point is that Abraham, Moses, Paul all appealed to God in their respective times that they would rather be cut off, blotted out, and accursed than not everyone being able to be restored and healed of their sinful, false self.
Hi Don & Fred, Always a joy to exchange perspectives with you. :o)
2 years ago, God answered a silent prayer that I prayed and literally blew me out of the water with Grace. Since then, I have been re-examining everything I was taught as a Seventh-day Adventist/Baptist- put those two together and you come up with a Badventist. Religion has always been somewhat confusing for me as I desperately wanted to believe in a merciful God who loves me, rather than an egocentric, Hell-wielding tyrant. The more questions I ask, the more I have, but it is exciting to find that Truth is not neatly gift-wrapped in any one denomination or church group. God reveals more of Himself to me everyday and what a wonderful picture is coming into view.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts- you have contributed greatly to my journey. The idea of reconciliation of all things is very foreign to me. I would like to believe it's true. I will continue to look into it.
When the heart of Christ comes into your spirit, eventually you find you have an overwhelming compassion toward those who are struggling with addictions, etc. With all my heart, I hope they will all be saved...
However, there are verses in the Bible like, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." This seems to make it clear that belief is essential. However, as I've stated in my blog, I have known atheists who are more honorable and ethical than some Christians, so professing the name of Christ may not be the only test?
Still learning.... :o)
Trailady-
I know sometimes it's overwhelming coming into the gospel of grace. It's a lot to take in. You, like me brought a lot of baggage into your search for truth, ie; doctrines which were to be accepted at face value without scrutiny. For instance, the scripture you quoted, Acts 16:31 is a good example. The best thing you could do to help your search is to get a literal translation of the New Testament. It translates the Greek to English as closely as possible. There are several different ones you can get. I use the Concordant Literal NT. Here's how a literal translates Acts 16:31:
What must I be doing that I may be being saved? Believe on the Master Jesus and you will be being saved.
The problem is your definition of salvation. What you're calling "salvation", I call "redemption"
The first thing you notice is "be being", the present progressive tense, which means "happened in the past and is continuing". (Christ's redeeming work on the cross, done in the past. But, which is a continuing process. Salvation is a continuing process. Redemption took place on the cross. Paul makes this point several times in his writing. So, the verse is not talking about redemption, that's already done. Belief that you've been redeemed brings about the beginning of the process of salvation. I probably confused you with my explanation. You see, I remember how it sounded the first time I heard it. I will be glad to continue this with you any way you choose or not at all. That's the great part about this gospel. "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".
Trailady-
Here are a few verses on restitution (reconciliation)of all things in Christ:
Colossians 1:16-20
I Timothy 2:1-4
I Timothy 4:9-10
II Corintians 5:18-20
Romans 5:10
I Peter 3:18
Romans 11:36 (He made all things)
Just a few , there are many more.
Don, NO offense taken, by any means! Thank you for sharing with me your perspectives. I see what you are saying in the difference between Redemption and Salvation.
The church I was raised in (SDA) views it as Justification and Sanctification. They believe we were justified at the Cross, however, the way we live our lives once we know we are justified determines whether we are saved or lost. This was a tremendous burden of responsibility laid upon my shoulders. Couple that with all the lifestyle restrictions, no meat, jewelry, keep the commandments perfectly- especially the 4th, etc. Try though I might, I could not measure up to the standards. Eventually I fell into despair and nearly completely gave up on any belief at all.
It was terrifying for me to start questioning some of the teachings of the religion in which I was primarily raised. They (SDA's)
consider themselves to be the last remaining guardians of God's truth, or the 'Remnant Church'. To question them is to question God Himself in their eyes.
I am still recovering from all that, but I am finding rest, peace and freedom in Christ that I never knew possible!
FALLACY: Composition
3 and 5 are parts of 8.
3 and 5 are odd numbers.
Therefore, 8 is an odd number. (Invalid)
That is your argument.
"consuming fire" and "love" are parts of God. Deu 4:24; 9:3; Heb 12:8. 1Jo 4:8
Love has characteristics x, y, z. 1Co 13:4-8.
Therefore, God has characteristics x, y, z. (Invalid)
That is your argument.
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