Christianity+Paganism=?
Steve Jones posted on his blog a story about:"The Pastor- Where Did He Come From". It deals with how the role of the pastor, shepherd, priest, whatever, has changed from the earliest period of Christianity. It's a good read from Frank Viola's site and can be found here: http://www.ptmin.org/thepastor.htm
Frank said something which reinforced what I had been finding in my own studies of early Christianity. Namely, that pagan influence was much greater than most people think in the times following Constantine's conversion. That renown historian, Will Durant, is quoted by Frank Viola here: "Under Constantine, Christianity was both recognized and honored by the State. This blurred the line between the church and the world. The Christian faith was no longer a minority religion. Instead, it was protected by Emperors. As a consequence, church membership grew rapidly. Truck loads of new converts were made who were barely converted. They brought into the church a wide variety of pagan ideas (emphasis mine). In the words of Will Durant, “While Christianity converted the world; the world converted Christianity, and displayed the natural paganism of mankind.” The world converted Christianity, and displayed the natural paganism of mankind. WOW! How true that is. The ancient fathers of Christianity, like Paul, would hardly recognize today's Christianity........
posted by Don @ 10:14 PM
15 comments
15 Comments:
For years I experienced the word pagan pejoratively, that is, its meaning was negative. Specifically it meant "Non Christian".
More recently, thanks to writers like Thomas Moore and Matthew Fox, I have reclaimed the word as possessing a positive meaning. There are many definitions, the one I most like means "Of the country".
I am reminded of a Peter Gabriel lyric on "The lamb lies down on Broadway", in which he says, "I'd rather trust a country man than a town man, you can see in his eyes take a look if you can..."
Since the 5th Century Christianity has been a predominantly urban religion, there are so many theological assumptions we have made which are really nothing more than Urban Chauvinism.
I suspect the difficulty we have with Paganism is more a result of this chauvinism than anything else. I for one am proud to be a pagan in the making.
I have a friend who is officially Pagan, and have experienced a far closer relationship with him than 10 others who would denounce this in the name of Christianity.
A substantial part of our salvation in progress, is our repenting of attitudes which diminish closeness with the Earth; these lie at the root of the ecological genocide we are witnessing every day.
The primary "pagan" influence which comes to mind, brought into Christianity during this period, was Hell. Not a part of the OT, it was introduced to Christianity by former pagans whose religion believed in the concept of eternal punishment by their deity or deities. There were other pagan influences effected during the same period but none which had the deleterious effects on the gospel that this "damnable" idea had and has today....
We should trust the spirit of Gods leading in our lives instead of any book or institution. You can see the worlds influence in our modern churches as well. i.e. Christian Rock, Christian nightclubs, Christian dating services, Christian coffeehouses.
Don - I think there is more to the concept of the Pagan than simply a matter of being "of the country", so your observations are valid, and interesting. I have chosen to highlight this aspect, that is, urban chauvinism, because it rings true to me at present.
Chris - I am not exactly sure to what you are referring when you say we should look to the spirit rather than books. I agree with you, however, that our G-d is infinitely larger than our writings about G-d. The map is not the territory.
On your second point - the worlds influence - well that’s a complex and interesting issue. What we commonly accept as Christian often has quite "non-Christian" roots. This shows how culture bound our perceptions are, and how gullible we are in accepting packages without unpacking them.
One thing that is a sort of corollary (if that’s the right term) to this is how God reaches the "church" through the "world". One thing that comes to mind is how popular culture tends to evolve with the church standing by condemning it from afar, with no insight or feeling for it, and then decades later embraces it as if it discovered it.
I think of Rock music as a good example. In the 1970's Bob Larsen (peace now be upon his name) was wholly and chauvinistically condemning of the heathen influences of rock rhythms. Now you can’t turn around and there’s not a rock band in churches.
The same thing seems to be happening again with clubbing culture. From a generous perspective this has led the way in the worship arts for the last 15 years.
[Start prophecy] In another 5 years every church will have a DJ behind the alter but the world will have turned by then to a 17th century Baroque revival, and these Christian DJ's will all be gloating about how hip they are whilst everyone else in the world looks upon then as relics while they strum away at their lutes. [End prophecy]
i had a good giggle at Nic's prophecy, at the end of his comment - too true. in terms of the post itself, how true it is that christianity took on certain negative and fear-orientated beliefs - eg, eternal torment & heirarchical authoritarian structures - and bypassed the good stuff, such as respecting & working with, rather than exploiting, the earth.
looking at the world geo-political scene, the far-right evangelical church gives American foreign policy a spiritual & ethical veneer/stamp of approval, which it would otherwise not have.
personally i find the theo-fascism within the churches belief structures more worrying.
Nic-
Maybe a better term to use in this case is "non-Christian religions", rather than pagan. I think we tend to lump things into general catagories, where sometimes they don't truly belong. I try to avoid that possibility, but don't always succeed. Thanks for your comments.
ruzl-
I appreciate having your comments. They give me a viewpoint from outside the U.S., which is valuable to me. Sometimes I become too focused on what's going on here at home, forgetting there is more to this world than what's around me.
Hey Chris
I know I can sound like a pedantic Son of a Gun at times; thats just because I love language and meaning. Ultimately however its the journey that matters, its the passion, its the cleaving to the creative flow of G-d.
Grace has so many ramifications; one being that play becomes the norm. My daughters play unreservedly, one of the reasons is they know I love them. Likewise we explore, we unabashedly take on the taboos of things like the notion of the pagan, unravel it, see if its any good, take a bite, savour, and then spit or swallow - a wonderous freedom!
While we are on it, and this is a digression I admit (but do not recant of), I have started to follow your struggles with music; we can take this up someplace else like your blog or my nascent one, sometime soon.
And Don - this is after all your blog, its a bit rude talking to all your guests, or maybe its not, as I ramble on I realise that this is all a version of a favourite thing of mine - the Guest and the Host, wherein Jesus teaches up both to how to host and to be hosted, but ANYWAY ... whats your history background - that rather interests me.
PS Any American who is interested in things not only american is an american after my own heart. What percentage of you guys have passports? (We've heard some pretty wierd rumours, numbers ranging from a paltry 5% ?) (Also as devils advocate notice I said "you guys")
Nic- If you'll check my banner on the blog you'll see this is an open forum for discussion about Grace and our Lord, so you're welcome here any time. Glad to have you. My story is listed on YBMT blog (BruceD)at the right under ARTICLES, as Don's Story. Briefly, my background in education. I was in a conservative, Southern Baptist church for all but the last year, when I dropped out altogether. This gospel of grace that was shown to me has changed me. The changes are slow, but they continue. I saw a movie as a kid called "The Ugly American". I didn't put much stock in it at the time, but now I see a picture of how the world sees us today. As a retired teacher of history (34 years), I know world history, and realize the position America is in today. I'm not sure we asked for the position, but none the less, here we are. I'm afraid we haven't done a very good job of managing such a tremendous amount of responsibility in a way that God would have us to. I wish we would step back, reconsider our role in today's world. I now do not support the war in Iraq. It was a mistake. It has cost us dearly in more than one way. It has cost us respect in the eyes of many in the world. It has cost us dearly in the number of lost lives of our military. I support our military completely (they only do what they are instructed to do, good or bad ( I am the father of a U.S. Marine).
I am 61 years old and have never had a passport. I've been to Canada, Mexico only. I would think 5% too small a number because I know lots of people who have passports and use them frequently.
Anything else you would like to discuss, within reason, is great. Thanks again for your comments.
Interesting discussions guys.
I am reading Frank Viola's book on "Pagan Christianity". It is a good read and has helped me better understand where most of our religious traditions come from.
I'm really not too intellectual although I am told that I have a high IQ. I just speak from my heart most of the time and I seem to learn much more from experience than from studying.
Having said that....
Nic, would you cut it out. I have had to refer to the dictionary atleast three times just reading your comments. hehehe
Steve. I DO NOT RECANT. The fact that you had to use the dictionary 3 times means that the balance between the understood and the new is perfect! I wish I had to use the dictionary more often.
I shall look out for Violas book - thanks for the tip.
Seriously, I believe language is beautiful. It is a tool for communication, for community building, and for expressing the manifold beauty and mystery of life.
Of course pride always lurks in the wings, and intelectualism can be a sourge. I am pleased you see yourself as intelligent and yet not intellectual.
I am really interested in Hermenutics - the art of translation. Hermes himself (from where the word comes) was the god of boundaries. I have always lived along boundary lines.
One pitfall of language artists is they can exclude many from their midst by over complex words. I try use words that are appropriate. I try (well, sort of) to be all things to all men. But I will not simply pander to the lowest common denominator, as is the way in commerce and politics.
It appears that Jesus used simple language, and yet his poetry, his allegories, metaphors and parables, are amongst the finest and most meangingful words I have ever read.
Yes Nic, it seems as though the simplicity of His message and the transforming power of His words was based on a love so perfect as to change everything.
The value that exists in His words sometimes amazes me and I wonder at how religion, based on past traditions, so frequently gets in the way of perceiving the real meanings of what Jesus taught depriving us of that value.
For years I was taught that the parable of the pearl of great price was about what I must do to win Jesus rather than about what He had done to win me. To realize the simple truth of our great worth to Him is a transforming revelation.
I was taught the good Samaritan was about what I must do in taking on the responsibility to provide care for my neighbor rather than what He has done in order to provide eternally for the care of us all.
Simple truths with the power that transforms us and those with whom we come in contact.
No, don't recant Nic. I'll just keep the dictionary close.
;-)
"PS Any American who is interested in things not only american is an american after my own heart. What percentage of you guys have passports? (We've heard some pretty wierd rumours, numbers ranging from a paltry 5% ?) (Also as devils advocate notice I said "you guys")"
Nic, It's flattering that you find interest in my music, and yes, I would enjoy discussing it further with you. As far as the passport thing goes, and I am speaking for myself here,I cannot afford to travel outside my home state much less outside the country. However, the idea that Americans only care about themselves is ridiculous. Unfortunately, we have an administration that has made some wrong choices, that much is true! But, to lump the entire population of a nation under one banner is short sided. I am not an intellectual or a history teacher. I believe, however, if you will study world history with a open mind, you will see that the United States has made many valueable contributions. There isn't any nation or government free from corruption, but I still would rather be here than anywhere else!
I agree with this premise of Paganism creeping in to the church, however, I have to wonder if Paul would fail to recognize us because of the Pagan influence or because of the fact that despite his great efforts to show us love and grace, we insist on making it about exhibiting perfect behavior in order to prove something to God?
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